21 Mar 7 reasons why property values won’t collapse | Why most renovations fail | Something you need to know about asbestos plus more
Once again the annual International Demographia Housing Survey ranked Australia one of the most unaffordable places on earth. Sydney has been ranked the third most unaffordable major property market and Melbourne took sixth spot on the unaffordability index. In fact for more than a decade now international market analysts have been waiting for Australia’s so called ‘property bubble’ to burst. However most local economists are pretty confident that our housing markets are sheltered from any major overseas style collapse. Michael Yardney tells us the 7 reasons he thinks prices will not collapse but in fact will continue to grow.
We ask finance broker Andrew Mirams if brokers can be financial planners as well? Hear what Andrew has to say about the “one stop shop” rationale vs. getting a good team around you.
Jane Slack Smith reveals why most renovations fail to make a profit and she shares her years of experience so you can avoid it from happening to you. We also tell you about a great new reno video series as well.
Talking about renovation, Brad Beer has some great news about how you can make money from removing asbestos from a property. Another reason not to fear properties with asbestos.
We have some compelling reasons why you shouldn’t get a real estate agent to bid for you at auction.
Our own Kieran Clair won an award for his real estate reporting. In another life, Kieran was a property valuer and we get an interesting insight into how writing articles about real estate investing has changed how he sees property.
Kevin: There’s so much talk about what is happening with property prices? Are they going to go up? Are they going to come down? Is it affordable? Michael Yardney has actually made the statement that he believes Australian property prices will remain where they are, if not climb even further.
He joins me. Michael, what are the reasons behind that statement?
Michael: Kevin, I think it’s the way we live and the way we’re going to live. Property prices keep going up for two main reasons: supply and demand – in other words, our population is going to keep growing – and also affordability. By that, I don’t mean cheap properties, but the fact that Australia is becoming and will remain a wealthy nation, and we’re prepared to pay a premium to live there.
Kevin: We’re living largely in several major capital cities. Do you see that changing much?
Michael: Kevin, that’s one of the reasons prices are high. No, I don’t see it changing much, and I can’t see it decentralizing. One of the reason house prices are high in Australia is that, in general, we live in six major capital centers, and each of those other than Hobart actually boasts in excess of a million residents.
It’s surprising. If you actually look at other countries, other than Japan and Hong Kong in the sample, there’s no other country as urbanized as us. The fact that we’re dense and urbanized but in cities that are quite wide and big – big, big cities – spacious and expanding is another reason our property values are high.
Kevin: That expansion is really what the government has been trying to do – isn’t it – trying to regionalize us by bringing in major infrastructure. Is that the answer?
Michael: Kevin, what’s happening is most people still want to live close to where the action is, close to the CBD. Interestingly, most of the economy in our country is now very much a knowledge-based and service, and IT industry. We’re no longer a manufacturing country. We no longer live off the regional and rural Australia and the sheep’s back. Our economy comes from the big capital cities.
Most of the jobs are close to the CBD. Most people don’t want to commute that far, and so many of us are prepared to pay a premium to live close to where all the action is, where the jobs are, where the entertainment is, where the universities are, where lifestyle is.
Kevin: Given that’s the case, are we better off looking at smaller houses and having more infill?
Michael: More and more of us are swapping backyards for balconies, and not necessarily smaller houses – maybe smaller lots. In Melbourne and Sydney, there are more townhouses being built.
It’s happening a bit in Brisbane and Perth, as well, where the old houses are now past their use-by date. You pull them down and build two, three, or four townhouses where you have a modern spacious home on a compact lot. That’s the way of living for a larger percentage of our people in the future, Kevin.
Kevin: We’re all getting richer, though, too. I’ve heard you say that, as well, Michael.
Michael: Well, the rich are getting richer, but in fact, all of Australia is getting richer. We’re a wealthy nation, and every year when the World Wealth Report comes out, we come amongst the top. This year, again, we topped the world, and because of that, we can afford to pay a premium to live in these bigger properties – and Kevin, we have big homes, don’t we?
Kevin: We do, indeed. Well on that point, aren’t we better off regionalizing more because we have so much land?
Michael: That’s what the government has been attempting to do: paying incentives for people to move there, moving industries – including their tax departments – out of various regional locations, but most of us don’t want to live that way.
As our city matures, more and more of us want to live where the hustle and bustle is. We’re not as much a country of living in big open spaces like we were before. We want to be where the action is.
Kevin: What about that grand Australian dream of everyone owning a property? There are some great tax incentives offered now.
Michael: All of us aspire to own a home, and in Australia the homeownership rates have really remained much the same. I remember when I first started investing, it was just over 70% about 40 years ago. People said by the turn of the decade, which was 15 years ago, ownership would drop to 50% because our kids would never be able to afford a home.
Interestingly, ownership rates have remained very much the same – just under 70%. If you look at property ownership rather than home ownership, a lot of young people are investors but still rent. It’s in our blood, and the tax system encourages us. That’s another reason why it’s working so well and house prices are going to remain high, Kevin.
Kevin: Compelling reasons there, Michael. Thank you so much for your time.
Michael Yardney from Metropole Property Strategists. Thanks, mate.
Michael: My pleasure, Kevin.
Kevin: There’s a lot of talk in the market now about the viability of brokers. A lot of real estate agencies have been into brokerage for some time, but we’re seeing them now open up into other areas – turning on your power, helping you move, even getting into insurance. Is this a good thing, the one-stop shop?
I’m going to ask Andrew Mirams from Intuitive Finance to address this with me now and talk specifically about whether brokers can be financial planners. I’ll open it up with that to start with. Andrew, is that a good idea?
Andrew: Good day, Kevin. I’m a little bit against that one-stop shop, I guess. Brokers are probably trying to now go into financial planning and even accounting and conveyancing, and things like that – more because a lot of those industries have probably tried to break into brokering.
I think there’s a fair bit of evidence out there that neither of them has really worked that successfully. There are certainly some success stories out there. But the real issue I have with it is this. it depends how many brokers or how big your enterprise is, but if the brokers are trying to do the financial planning and the insurance as well as your loan and everything, is which part are they doing well?
Are they all doing just all of it okay, or are they doing a really good job? If they’re doing a really good job, I would suggest they don’t have too many clients, and how much exposure are they getting to all the different options and opportunities that there might be out there?
Kevin: I guess you ask the question, too, whether they’re doing it themselves or whether they setting up allegiances, which is in a way what some of the real estate companies have done. They’ve set up allegiances with finance brokers. I know there are some that actually own the finance arm – as Ray White owned Loan Market, for instance –but they trade as separate entities and tell you that never the twain shall meet. But it comes down, once again, to that one-stop shop rationale, doesn’t it?
Andrew: Yes. As a client, I would always ask myself, “If I’m going there to get my mortgage and then they’re doing my planning and they’re doing my accounting, how impartial is the advice? Are they working together because they know that they’re making X amount off me, or are they really doing the right thing for me?”
There’s no right or wrong answer. I’m a really big believer in allegiances and having a really great network around you, and that’s both as a client and also as a business person, as a broker. We have a great cache of financial planners, accountants, insurance brokers, buyer’s agents, all around us so when any client comes in here, I can say, “This will be great. I think you should go and see them.”
They’re really happy. We sort of fit as the hub and we have all our spokes going out. We know we’re referring them to really good people, that our clients are going to be really well looked after.
I quite like that philosophy a lot more than having everything in-house and the clients come in they think for a half-hour interview and three hours later, they’re signing some insurance forms and they’re not really sure what they’re signing them for.
Kevin: I guess it comes down to what you said there. It’s making sure that you know the people you are dealing with, that your clients are going to be well looked after. It goes much more than any trail you might pick up or any income that you might get. It’s to know you’re going to end up with a very happy client at the end of it.
Andrew: Absolutely. I would forgo all of that to make sure I’ve got a happy client, because a happy client is going to recommend us again and again, and we’re going to do more business that way.
I’d much rather forgo all of that but have a happy client, because happy clients tell good stories. An unhappy client we tried to do everything for and mucked up, you end up losing all the business is the reality. You make one mistake on one of those entities if you’re trying to do the planning, the accounting, and the brokering and you make one blue, you’ll probably lose the total business.
I think, also, from risk management, there’s a real issue you can lose clients if one of those entities makes a blue.
Kevin: It comes down to all the smart investors I know – and we talk about it all the time on the show – have their own team around them. They have their own finance broker, their own insurance broker, their own real estate agents who they work with, so they’ve effectively got their own team. They don’t need that one-stop shop anyway, Andrew.
Andrew: Absolutely. I’m the same, Kevin. I have my own team around me, and our really strong clients and good investors have a really good team around them. They all work together but they’re not intrinsically linked, so that if one of the team recommends one thing, there’s quite an open dialogue in terms of saying, “Why are you recommending?” and “Give us the protocol.”
From the client’s perspective a good little test is “Why are you doing that?” or “Why are you recommending that?” Is it a good idea? Does that work? Go and talk to your accountant and come back to me and what I’m recommending. I think that’s a really good tasting mechanism for clients to be able to get a second opinion.
Kevin: We’d love to hear your opinion, too. Let us know through the website. What do you think? Have you got your own team? You might have a view on that. Maybe you’ve had a wonderful experience with a one-stop shop. Let us know.
We’d love to have your feedback through the show any time at Real Estate Talk. And make sure you catch up with Andrew and his team from Intuitive Finance at their featured channel on Real Estate Talk, as well.
Andrew, thanks for your time.
Andrew: My pleasure, Kevin.
Kevin: Earlier this month, on the 3rd of March actually, we treated you to a fantastic webinar with Jane Slack-Smith and some great ideas on renovation. By now, you will have also heard about the Ultimate Guide to Renovation. That’s open right now, but it’s only open for a limited period. I’ll tell you more about that in just a moment.
Joining me once again, the lady behind the program, the mastermind behind this, Jane Slack-Smith. Good day, Jane.
Jane: Hi Kevin.
Kevin: Jane, these free videos that are running right now, tell me about what’s inside these?
Jane: There are four videos in the video series that we put out, and they’re packed full of so much information. The first one for me is what I find so many people make mistakes with is buying the wrong property, so what I’ve done in the first video is actually take people live through a property inspection.
Kevin: We talked about that in that webinar, too. It’s a great way to find out what are the right properties? Now, as we said there are four in the series. They’re available right now. They’re free. It’s called www.FreeRenoVideo.com.au.
A lot of very well intentioned renovators go wrong, Jane. Where do you see them go wrong?
Jane: There are so many things that people can avoid. Really, the number one is probably just missing the facts that they’re renovating the wrong property. You really need to have pricing disparity between the renovated and the unrenovated property.
An example of that, Kevin, is if you were looking at buying a property for $350,000, if the renovated property was worth $380,000, there’s probably not a lot of room there for you to be making a profit. A lot of people see the opportunity with a rundown property and think they can probably fix it up with a lick of paint, where in actual fact, there’s probably not money to be made there.
Kevin: A fine line between adding value and over-capitalizing, which is what you’re saying, isn’t it?
Jane: Absolutely. You can over-capitalize in other areas, as well. There are what I call the no- or low-return items. If you have to go and fix up the plumbing or the electricals, or if there are things that you haven’t identified in your initial checklist, in your inspection, that then are going to cost you money, they’re going to eat into your budget and they’re going to cost you money and maybe not make a profit for you.
Kevin: One of the other things I know you talk about, too, in these free videos is all about getting the right location. That’s another big mistake people make.
Jane: Absolutely. We spend a lot of time in the Ultimate Guide to Renovation looking at suburb due diligence and then actually selecting a suburb, as well. You’re really looking at the right property in the right area that’s right for renovation, and that to me is the key to successful renovation.
We can get into pretty color schemes and strategic renovations and wonderful solutions on innovative kitchen designs, etc., but really renovating the wrong property to start with, you’re never going to make money.
Kevin: Yes. Some of the things you’re going to see inside the free video series are things like how to create a bathroom that looks great, how to make sure that you finish the property off well, and I also love the three most dangerous mistakes most people make when they’re buying a property to renovate.
Jane: Absolutely. We hear this all the time, Kevin, the fact that people get emotional about even their first property investment. They think about the color schemes or the things that they would like to do with the property themselves in their own home, and they make it an emotional buy, and that’s just the number one wrong thing to do when you’re buying a property.
Kevin: If you’re interested in renovation, perhaps you already own an investment property or your own home maybe, or you’d like to start using property to make a profit, now build wealth through that, and you can do that by watching this video series. It’s absolutely free. It’s available for you now, but only for a limited time. The website is www.FreeRenoVideo.com.au.
I have to mention, too, that the Ultimate Guide to Renovation, you can get a lot more information, too, by watching that series of videos, but the entry is open right now?
Jane: Yes, that’s right. The enrolments close on the 26th of March. The reason that we do this is because we want to jump straight in with the content with our students. We hand-hold people through. There are product Facebook groups, there are mastermind groups, there are Q&A group monthly calls with me personally. We’re really dedicated to making this successful for people rather than just leaving them by themselves.
Kevin: You can get all the information you like on that program at www.FreeRenoVideo.com.au. Go to that site, and we’ll also be letting you know, too, as a subscriber to Real Estate Talk how you can get involved. That’s the Ultimate Guide to Renovation.
My guest has been Jane Slack-Smith. Jane, always lovely talking to you.
Jane: Great talking to you, too. Thank you, Kevin.
Kevin: My guest once again is Brad Beer from BMT Tax Depreciation.
Brad, I want to focus this time a little bit more on some of those renovation issues that we’ve already touched on. But I want to go a little bit deeper into them, particularly the area of hazardous materials.
We’re seeing a lot of asbestos now needing to be removed from some of these renovations. Can I claim that?
Brad: Yes. It’s not actually a depreciation claim necessarily. It’s an instant claim a lot of the time for the removal of these materials. I guess it’s probably the tax office saying, “We really want these things gone, and so therefore, we’ll allow you to make a deduction for the removal of these things,” because you’re more likely to get rid of them that way.
Kevin: Would you do that for me, or do I need to get my own quotes and give that to you?
Brad: Because it’s not actually a depreciation claim – usually, it’s a direct cost –we’ll work with the accountant to make sure that’s one of the things that you claim.
Kevin: One of the questions I’m asked quite often is about the age of the building. Does it depend on the age of the building as to its availability for depreciation?
Brad: Once again, it’s one of the most common questions. People seem to think it’s only on new properties or fairly new properties. I want to take age out of our minds in relation to this. Yes, the age does impact on how much you can claim, but older properties still get depreciation. It’s often just a bit less.
We’ll always talk to a client about their property, about what it is, and we’ll make sure that it’s going to be enough deductions there for them before we go ahead and do anything. It’s free to get an idea of what sort of deductions may be there.
Kevin: When I’m renovating, can I actually claim my own labor?
Brad: Yes, that’s another regular question. Because you actually don’t pay for your labor, it’s much cheaper than what you would pay someone else because you put your blood, sweat, and tears into it instead. Effectively your own labor, unless you pay yourself for the work, it’s not a claimable part of the cost for depreciation.
Kevin: You must see a lot of renovations, and obviously, you’re doing the bulk of the tax depreciation schedules. What are you seeing is the most tax effective way to improve a property?
Brad: Firstly, making sure it’s an investment property when you do improvements, so you have some deductibility.
Sometimes the things you put in there will make a bit of difference as to what you can claim. Carpet has a quicker claim than tiles, for example, and so do floating timber boards. You get to claim them as plant and equipment as opposed to being part of the structure.
Your decision on a lot of these things isn’t just going to be about the depreciation; it’s going to be about your property and what’s the best for the best valuations and the best rental returns etc. But we can always talk to you about some of the things that you can do – like the carpet instead because you will get to claim it a little bit quicker.
Kevin: I suppose that’s all about doing the research. You’ll come out and give me an assessment on the property?
Brad: We’ll have a look at the plans and have a discussion. We can tell you what you’re doing and what we think you could change to help maximize your depreciation, definitely.
Kevin: Going past that assessment stage, what does it cost to get a depreciation schedule done?
Brad: When we identify that it is worth it for you and we’re going to get some deductions for you, we charge a fee of $650 plus GST, which is $715, which includes us coming to site, doing the inspection, and doing a full depreciation schedule that’ll tell your accountant what to claim for the next 40 years of owning that property.
We also offer a guarantee that says unless we can find twice that in deductions in the first full financial year or even additional deductions to what you’re doing, we’ll give you the money back.
We talk to you about your property first, we make sure it’s worth it, and if we’re wrong, we’ll back it and give you your money back.
Kevin: Excellent. What about the timeframe? How long does it take to do one of these?
Brad: We need to get access to the property, so we have to work around your tenants and keep them as happy as we can. Normally, within a week or so, they’ll let us in. After that, seven working days, you’ll have your report, providing we’ve got the information we need to do it.
Kevin: The final question I want to ask you is about my accountant. I’m working with an accountant. How closely do you work with them, or are they separate?
Brad: We provide only one number for them each year in a tax return or a couple of numbers. We talk to them about the property sometimes. They’re our friends. Most of the time, people are calling us up because their accountant said to call us and get one of those depreciation schedules. We’re the specialists just in this area of depreciation, and they’re our friends; we work alongside them.
Kevin: Yes, wonderful. Brad Beer from BMT Tax Depreciation Quantity Surveyors. The website is BMTQS.com.au.
Brad, once again, thank you very much for joining us.
Brad: Thanks, Kevin.
Kevin: There once was a time when if you went to an auction and you wanted someone to bid for you, it would be quite normal for you to ask a real estate agent who may, in fact, also be working for the seller. But when you think about it, it really doesn’t make a lot of sense, does it?
We’re seeing the emergence of buyer’s agents around Australia, too. They even now have their own association, which is called the Real Estate Buyers Association of Australia. President of that organization is Jacque Parker who is also a buyer’s agent and works with House Search Australia.
Jacque, thank you for your time.
Jacque: Pleasure, Kevin, as always.
Kevin: It doesn’t make a lot of sense to have a seller’s agent who is working for the seller to actually bid for you at an auction. I guess it’s a bit like asking a crocodile if it’s time to go for a swim.
Jacque: I don’t know about that analogy, but definitely, buyers need to be aware that vendor’s agents – obviously – have a conflict of interest when it comes to representing buyers at auction, because they are paid by the vendor and they have a fiduciary responsibility to their sellers.
Kevin: It is a bit of a conflict of interest, but what if you have a seller’s agent who wasn’t actually working for the seller? Is that a little bit different, Jacque?
Jacque: If you have a real estate agent who is licensed appropriately and they’re acting for the buyer, they still should have an agreement in place with that buyer as they’re acting in a capacity as a buyer’s agent in that circumstance.
One would hope that they would have an agreement for even just auction bidding and have paid them a fee for doing so. It is very clear to me that even though real estate agents can act for buyers, they do need to be representing the buyer fairly, and the only way that that can happen is via a transaction and a fee accruing.
Kevin: Is there an agreement covering just the activities that a buyer’s agent would put in? Is that like an appointment to act?
Jacque: Most definitely, yes. With our clients – as with most buyer’s agents – we would have a written agreement drawn up as well as a written authority to bid form, which stipulates the maximum bid that the buyers are willing to go to on the form. That is signed off by the client, the buyer, and also the buyer’s agent.
Kevin: Do you normally get one of those agreements unique to each property, or can you get one that takes you across a number of properties just through a negotiation, Jacque?
Jacque: It does depend on how many times the buyer’s agent has worked for a particular client. If he has a client – for example – who is a one-off, you still need a written agreement, but you can vary the terms of the agreement to cover so many auctions. It really is up to the individual’s buyer’s agent and client.
Kevin: I said at the start of this chat that the number of buyer’s agents around Australia is growing. Is it growing stronger in any state over any other state?
Jacque: I can’t say for sure with the numbers, although looking at the membership within REBA – the Real Estate Buyer’s Agents Association – since I have been president, in the last two and a half years, the numbers have increased by more than 100%. Our membership base has grown, so it is very clear to us that the buying public is seeking representation definitely more than they were even two or three years ago.
Kevin: Does a buyer’s agent have to be a member of your association or any association?
Jacque: No, they don’t. Just like any industry, they don’t need to be a member, but it certainly helps if you are going to be looking for someone to act on your behalf that they are a member of an organization that has accreditation in place like ours and also to make sure that the buyer’s agent is experienced – they’ve been around for a while and they know what they’re doing.
Kevin: Being a member of your organization, does that offer the buyer any special privileges or any special protection?
Jacque: Yes, it does, Kevin. All of our buyer’s agents within REBA are appropriately insured. They are also fully licensed, and they have to have a minimum experience in the field of two years. That provides, I think, some comfort to buyers knowing that they’re dealing with someone with experience and with the right credentials.
Kevin: A couple of important things have come out of this chat with Jacque. One is the fact that if you want someone to bid for you at auction, make sure that they are a registered buyer’s agent and more particularly, make sure they are a member of an association like the Real Estate Buyer’s Association of Australia.
My guest has been Jacque Parker. She is the president of that organization, also from House Search Australia.
Jacque, thank you so much for your time.
Jacque: My pleasure, Kevin.
Kevin: A regular contributor to our show is Kieran Clair who does the news every week. Kieran, of course, is a very talented journalist who works at Australian Property Investor magazine and writes a number of the feature articles that we sometimes include as our feature stories in Real Estate Talk.
I’m pleased to say that Kieran took out a recent award in Queensland for having written the best article of the year 2014. He joins me. Kieran, congratulations.
Kieran: Thank you very much indeed.
Kevin: A very proud moment, I’m sure, and having been your avid follower over many years, looking at your articles in API, the series that you won the award for went into great detail about the property markets – in great depth and great research.
There must be a lot of time and effort goes into writing these articles.
Kieran: Certainly. We are afforded plenty of time to make sure we get down to the tintacks, right down into the detail for those articles. One of the things I really love about working at this magazine is that we’re always encouraged to get plenty of sources and try and be as balanced as possible in the articles. I think that being given those resources really helps a great deal.
Kevin: Yes, I’m sure it does, and you get to talk – like me – to a lot of really interesting people. I sometimes get very motivated when I talk to someone about how they’ve done a recent renovation or they bought their tenth property. I think “Wow!” It really motivates me. Do you find the same thing?
Kieran: Absolutely. My significant other – my wife – is a property valuer, so a lot of table talk about property occurs in our house. It’s pretty hard when you come away from talking to someone who is talking about syndicated investments or talking about small developments or even as you said, renovation, not to go home, sit around the table, and say “Hey, I’ve had some really good information today, and I think we could do something.”
I just wish there was always the time and funds to take on everything that comes into the imagination.
Kevin: Yes. I find that, too. It must have been I found that as a real estate agent, as well, going out and seeing so many great properties, there were so many that I wanted to buy, but you just simply can’t do them.
Have you learned much out of the experience of being with API in terms of how you research a particular market and the lessons we can learn from that as investors?
Kieran: Yes. I’ve certainly learned a great deal here. My previous experience in property valuation, whilst I was a specialist in property valuation, you also specialized in geographic areas, so I would only be a specialist in 15 suburbs in Brisbane. Coming here, you get an expanse; the whole country opens up to you and there are people out there who know a lot about our markets.
I think that the lessons to take away from here are really to do your research and seeking good independent advice. I think that the skill is to be able to realize when someone has your best interest at heart or someone is just wanting to impart knowledge to make you a better investor; they’re not looking to talk themselves up or have an agenda.
I think independent advice is the one thing that is going to put you in very good stead when it comes to investing in property.
Kevin: I’m interested in a comment you made there about valuers and how you find a particular area, become a specialist in an area or a class of property. I thought that valuers were able to go across a broad range because they look at it fairly analytically.
Kieran: You will certainly find in the bigger firms nowadays that valuers are going to become specialists, particularly in geography. In the firm that I was in, for example, we would have had 25 valuers on staff doing residential property only, and they’ve divided up the capital city here in Queensland.
It’s actually a very effective way to conduct that sort of work because you become intensely informed in particular sales, particular properties, and the way that the market reacts to them.
That said, valuers need to have a very broad knowledge on how markets work. Most do. You have to keep up to date with your continuing professional development, etc., but certainly when you become a specialist in an area, it’s pretty impressive how you can sit and talk to anyone in the industry about a particular part of the geography and know it almost down to the house color.
Kevin: Do you think your experience at API over the last year or two has broadened your experience? If you were to go back as a valuer, would you be looking at it differently?
Kieran: Absolutely. I think that it’s opened up a whole different part of the property brain for me – the ability to talk about how markets are analyzed, how people look at statistics, looking at vacancy rates, etc., but also there’s this whole relativity thing that the valuer works in. If you become too centralized in your areas, you forget that there are suburbs out there with an average or median price of $1 million plus in Sydney.
That’s almost mind blowing for a Brisbane valuer who’s working in the outer western suburbs who’s putting property values of $200,000 to $400,000 dollars on most home. I think that you just get a better appreciation of how markets work and the way that people think when they’re buying.
Kevin: Lovely talking to you. Congratulations on your award. More great articles coming from you, as well, and it’s always good to have your input into our show every week.
Thanks for your time, Kieran.
Kieran: Thank you for being so generous with me, as well.